TLDR: Pennsylvania Lumbermens Insurance (127 years serving wood industry) partners with SonicAire to offer preferred pricing, recognizing fans as critical for combustible dust management. Loss Control Manager Dan Braiman emphasizes that automated overhead cleaning eliminates dangerous manual cleaning while maintaining NFPA 652 compliance.
Key Points:
• 127 years serving wood industry from sawmills to retailers
• Dust explosions propagate through facilities like secondary explosions
• Annual inspections check documented housekeeping programs
• Partnership offers preferred pricing for PLM insureds
• Eliminates dangerous elevated cleaning with vacuums or water
Transcript:
00:15
Hi, I’m Jordan with SonicAire. Thanks for joining me today. With me today is Dan Braiman from Pennsylvania Lumbermens Mutual Insurance. Dan, welcome. Thanks for joining me today.
00:32
Thanks for having me.
00:33
Yeah. Dan, you’re with Pennsylvania Lumbermens. Tell us a little bit about Pennsylvania Lumbermens and what you guys do.
00:43
Pennsylvania Lumbermens has been servicing, providing insurance to the wood industry for 127 years now. We were founded by lumber folks, for lumber folks and we provide insurance coverage for everybody from Saw Miller’s making their raw board through any kind of manufacturing in between and as well as the retailers who are doing different frontline sales.
01:11
Wow. Yeah. So what about you specifically? How long have you been with Pennsylvania Lumbermens? And what’s been been your experience and exposure to the wood industry?
01:21
Yep, I’ve been in the insurance industry 18 years. For 17 of those years, I’ve been providing loss control services for the wood industry actually started with Indiana Lumbermens and we merged into Pennsylvania Lumbermens in 2014 and been in the field 13 years, providing service directly and 2018, I moved into a management role for our company.
01:47
Okay, great. Well, in those 18 years, you’ve probably seen a lot of things change, and you know, SonicAire where we’re in the dust industry. And so I imagine you’ve probably seen some changes in in the dust and hazard control and hazard analysis and the things that you guys are looking for, as you try to help your customers be safer and protect their facilities and, and that sort of thing. So what kind of changes have you seen throughout the 18 years that you’ve been out there in the field and working hand in hand with these wood product manufacturers?
02:23
Yeah, the main difference has been in the understanding of wood dust and how explosive it is. So when I began servicing accounts, you know, we were concerned about dust in the rafters, dust on the walls, things of that nature. Because our thought process at the time was, the reason that we saw a lot of significant severe facility fires was that this dust would allow fires to travel from place to place, kind of like a fuse throughout the facility making the fires much bigger. What we, later, what was revealed about that was that, you know, it’s actually the case that it creates an explosion hazard. So a fire will happen, and either heat from the fire moving there about or, in some cases, if that fire is caused by a dust explosion, it’ll actually knock down dust off walls and rack rafters and create additional explosion events that will just propagate throughout the facility, which is significantly worse than than just traveling. Like a fuse would.
03:33
Yeah, that’s right. That’s what we’ve, unfortunately, a lot of a lot of people have learned the hard way. And we’ve we’ve seen tragedies and devastation kind of like that. So, you know, just like us, I know you guys are trying to get out in front of it and try to prevent these things from happening. Make sure that your customers don’t have to deal with that. So where does that start with you guys? How do you guys get the ball rolling and get started with your customers or even a prospective customer? Where does it begin?
04:02
So for our customers, we’re always gonna pre inspect facilities. We have a couple of classes of business that we write. There’s a the class that we refer to as our primary manufacturing folks, those are going to be our sawmill and our pallet manufacturers that are that are our heaviest dust producers and have the most concerns on average from that standpoint. And then we also have a light manufacturing book, or what we call light manufacturing, even though it’s oftentimes quite significant. It’s just not creating dust and wood waste at the same level in general. And then also our retailers and truthfully, even those folks if they’re not, even if they’re not cutting any wood, you know, housekeeping is always the first place to go. Okay, that’s gonna be the most important. Yeah. Yep. And specifically our primary focus we have, we have a set of what we call our primary manufacturing standards. thing that we want them to conform to. And part of that is a written housekeeping program that needs to address us in all areas. So
05:08
I imagine you have a checklist, some things that you’re looking for when you, you come on site and you go through what does that look like?
05:16
Yeah, we have a, we have a fairly significant report that we fill out for that. It’s going to include, you know, what are the what housekeeping programs are in place? You know, what sort of electrical maintenance machinery maintenance plans, are they keeping motors and electricals clean and clear the way they should? Obviously, wood dust is a huge concern there. Because those Electricals and motors can potentially be the cause of a dust explosion or just a fire as well. Yeah. And then, so we need, we need our primary folks to have all of that documented. And then you know, or lighter manufacturing folks, it’ll kind of depend on the size and degree and what they’re doing.
06:00
Sure. So I imagine that in your 18 years of experience, you’ve probably seen some pretty crazy things out in the field. So I imagine the first time that you visit a lot of facilities that they are probably not up to the standards that you want them to be. And there’s probably some opportunity in some, some room for improvement. So any any great stories or experiences or things that maybe scared you a little bit while you’re out there in the field.
06:35
So yeah, that’s going to be a case by case basis. And it really just has to deal with the owner, owner or management buy in, they need to be on board or it’s not going to go anywhere. So I’ve seen actually visited a brand new constructed sawmill that they had just just had a fire with another carrier, and they wanted us to look at them to offer coverage. And they had not done really a single thing. Housekeeping wise, since they had built this new state of the art multi level mills. So there was actually the main portion of the mill is elevated seven feet. So that everything can kind of be funneled down to the bottom of the mill and cleaned out that way. And in this particular case, there was a pile of dust that went up about 10 feet, so up through the great steel floor and up into the middle area, and they had just by appearance just never ever cleaned it. Wow. And in that particular case, you know, we just declined to offer coverage. Because, you know, if you’re gonna let standards fall to that degree, we can’t, we can’t be a party to that.
07:48
Wow. Yeah. So are you talked about some of the documentation you’d be looking for. So let’s say someone is kind of trying to do the best they can and you go visit the facility. And, you know, there’s not this 10 foot pallet us there, but it looks like they’re doing kind of okay, what are some things on the documentation side, if I’m a mill, or I’m a producer, what are you going to look at be looking for, for me to have in place.
08:18
So we’re gonna want them to have documented housekeeping, documented electrical maintenance programs, and document and machinery maintenance programs. So that’s gonna be the outline of the procedures and what we’re doing, but then also a documentation that that’s actually being completed on a regular basis. Were also very important to us. It’s hot work, welding or cutting of metal, which when we’re working with mills that are moving around large logs, they often will have to do that. Just because the damage intrinsic to moving those large heavy logs around.
08:54
For sure. We typically deal with a lot of customers that have a DHA in place. Do you? Do you look for that? Is that a key element to that? Do you get in the weeds on those as part of your inspection?
09:09
Yep, yeah, we definitely look into that try and see if they’ve done a DHA if they’re working on their DHA, what sort of what sort of things changes they’ve made based on those findings, because one of the big points of the DHA is to make sure that you’re not only you know, determining what areas and how combustible your dust is, but then making changes to electrical systems, housekeeping programs, any kind of fire protection systems to make it conform to what it should be to protect from that incident, that type of incident occurring.
09:46
Sure. Okay, so the documentation is in place, we’ve got a relationship going, life’s hunky dory, we’re making making product or making dust. When will I see you again, are we done, we’ve signed the contract, I’ve got insurance, I’m happy, you’ve got my business. Now what?
10:07
So we’re gonna see a minimum of one time annually for our primary folks definitely and for the majority of our manufacturers. And then we’re also available to provide services of all kinds. So we have quite a lot of lost control related material on our website, and of course, in our at our home office that we can send direct. And then also we can provide other services, we provide infrared thermography, thermographic studies of electrical systems, we provide trainings, for drivers, forklift drivers, any kind of staff training we can usually help out with. And in a couple of cases, we’ve actually supported, put together a service plan to support folks putting their DHA in place.
10:55
Great. Yeah, I was on your website earlier. And I noticed there is a tremendous amount of content on there, and it’s not hidden, it’s not password protected. So you don’t actually have to be a Pennsylvania Lumbermens client to go there and get that information. So I would encourage anybody watching this to go check that out. It’s under the loss control tab there on the Pennsylvania Lumbermens website, a tremendous amount of good information there. So we’re, we’ve got this relationship going on, you’re coming by annually. What are you looking for when you do come by annually? Are you going to are you going to be looking, what just all over the place? Just broadly speaking, what are some things that you’re going to be looking for when you do come by for that annual site visit?
11:44
We’re going to look for we’re going to look for sort of the basic standard things, you know, we’re gonna look at that the programs are in place that the housekeeping is being well addressed. Both from you know, day to day standpoint, there’s some sort of housekeeping items that may or may not take place that frequently. Overhead cleaning is often one of those that may only be done a couple of times a year, which which unfortunately, may or may not be sufficient, based on what we see on on the basis of build up in between times. We’re also going to look at what processes you have in place, is there any kind of issue that would be a concern, if you had a loss to a specific piece of equipment? Should it be more more specially protected, because if you lose that piece of equipment, you really can’t function because every, every piece of wood that you’re working on goes through that piece of equipment. So it’s going to shut down your business until you can get it restored. Things of that nature, and then sort of just broader form, what what really any any commercial carrier would look for, you know, just making sure that fire protection systems are maintained. You know, housekeeping is good. You have basically plans in place to address each issue that would arise in the course of standard business, and that you’re actually following through and getting those things done.
13:11
So one of the things I thought that was really interesting to me when when we talked previously was that there are ways that you can tell if the housekeeping is being done regularly, or it’s been a while talk about that a little bit, if you will.
13:30
Yeah. So dust particulate, wood dust particulate, dries very quickly, compared to say a board of lumber, which might may have to be dried through a process or usually is dried through a process. So even even if you’re cutting what they call green dust or high moisture content, just like you would at a sawmill. That dust as it sets on surfaces around the mill is going to dry out fairly quickly. So what we find is that if we see say, a small pile of dust on the ground somewhere, we can take a look at it and if that dust appears to be essentially uniform in coloration, you know, barring different types of woods being cut at the same mill. We can tell that that’s pretty much that’s today’s dust, you know, we we cleaned up yesterday, that’s all today’s dust. But if I if I look into that same pile and I see layers of different colors of dust usually getting darker, that’s going to indicate to me that that several days worth of dust that have sat on each other and dried out over different periods of time. So for that, cleanups not being done.
14:39
Yeah, see? Well, you know, that’s, I think, where we have a great partnership and that you know, we are trying to prevent that dust accumulation on those upper surfaces to make the housekeeping process a little bit easier. And we actually at Sonic air have partnered with Pennsylvania Lumbermens Insurance. Dan, you want to talk just a little bit about that and kind of how we’re working together and what a Pennsylvania Lumbermens customer or potential Pennsylvania Lumbermens customer can do to benefit from that.
15:14
Yep. So we’ve we’ve secured, we’ve worked together to create a partnership to get some preferred pricing for our insurance, you know, the wood industry, dust is the huge issue. So keeping it down out of those overhead rafters are good, is good, not only from a fire perspective, but also from a life safety perspective, that kind of prevents you from having to send your your employees up into the rafters to do clean up a couple of times a year, or however often you have to based on accumulation, it just takes all of that away, so you don’t have to shut down or come in on the weekend and send a couple of guys up on a man lift and have them now, this is now required either vacuum or very carefully use water to cry that down since a blow downs are basically now prohibited.
16:06
Water. Wow, that sounds like a mess.
16:09
Yeah, yeah. And it can create it’s own concerns if it’s not allowed to dry out properly on electricals or machinery underneath can lead to its very own problems. So really, vacuuming is the best option. But sure that that’s also clearly the slowest option to get that sort of work done if you’re talking about the entire inner roof of your facility.
16:32
Sure. So something like a SonicAire fan may be able to prevent you from having to go into those overhead spaces and do the vacuuming to start with. So a little bit of prevention can go a long way on something like that. So one of the questions that we get asked from time to time actually fairly regularly, is are these fans OSHA approved? Is my insurance company gonna be okay with this? This seems like fans below industrial might be a bad idea. So have you been asked that? Or how would you respond to that if someone asked you today, hey, insurer, are you going to approve the use of these Sonic Gear fans?
17:11
Yep. So SonicAire fans are approved per NFPA 652, which is the combustible dust standard in the National Fire Protection Agency. And NFPA is basically the go to reference for for all OSHA related guidelines. So, yes, they are approved. They’re safe to be used in the areas that we’re looking at using them. Great.
17:40
Okay, so I think we’ve covered we’ve covered a lot. Oh, there was one story that I want, I want you to talk about, that we talked about recently. And I want you to share with everyone else today. And that was the story about the dust collector that had the unfortunate explosion had the blowback into the facility. Can you talk a little bit about that? And you know how that even though it was a serious event, it could have been a lot worse and talk about some of the details about that.
18:11
Yep. So yeah, we had a we had an insured in the past, where we’ve seen it several, several times over the course of my 17-18 years in the field, where essentially dustbag houses for most of their operating time, if they’re working with machinery that’s cutting dried lumber, which is the most common thing, essentially have the have the perfect setup with internally to have a dust explosion. So there’s a lot of different controls that can be put into place for that. One that we require on any kind of significant woodworking operation that’s using the dustbag house as their dust collection system is spark detection and flame suppression systems on the dirty air intake side. So hopefully that’s going to detect anything hot that’s trying to get into that collector that could cause that explosion. Sure, and douse it with water. The other thing we’re going to ask for, especially in those facilities where they’re returning the clean air side back into the facility to to maintain heat, usually in the wintertime, we’re going to ask that they have a high speed of board gate installed. And what that’s going to do is if something is detected within the collector, it’s going to slam that from returning that air into the building to to an exterior ventilation immediately. I see. And the concern there is is that we’re we’re literally blowing that explosion right back into the building. If we do have that return air, we don’t have that aboard gate. So we actually had a customer that we had talked about that with for many years, but at that time, it was not a requirement by our company. It was just something we suggested in certain applications. Since become a requirement Because of incidents like this, but but they were hesitant to make the expense to make the capital investment at the time, and then they in fact had an explosion event in the wintertime. And it did blow back into their building and basically made a giant fireball and all the overhead rafter area right over the head of all their employees. Wow. Fortunately, it was a higher ceiling, and they did have a good housekeeping program in place, good program in place that they did follow to keep those rafters spaces clean and free of dust. So it didn’t become a much worse event which it very easily could have.
20:39
Well, I can’t imagine really a much better case study for housekeeping. You know, that’s, that’s really fortunate that they had been doing what they were supposed to be doing. They’re doing their homework, and really saved a lot of lives as a result.
20:56
Yep, yep. Absolutely. And that’s, that’s when we point out to, you know, in support of why we have these guidelines in place, not not just for the property side, and even the employee safety side. But but also, you know, you got to think about liability, as well, you know, OSHA mandates that employers have to provide a safe workplace. And, you know, an argument could well be made, that having a fireball over your head during work hours is not safe.
21:29
Pretty exciting, and slightly hazardous to say the least? Well, Dan, I know I’m grateful for the partnership we have with Pennsylvania Lumbermens. I appreciate the work that you all do to help protect the workforce to keep folks in the wood products industry safer and more compliant and create more, ultimately more efficient workplaces as well. So thank you for that. Thank you for the work you do and your partnership. So if anyone watching today wants to get more information about you guys, and what you do and the services you offer, where would they go? How do they get started?
22:10
PLM ins.com is our website, there’s a lot of great information about us who we are, what we do, what products and services we offer. And then of course, as you’ve mentioned, our loss control center is also there. We’ve got about 66 guides, quite a lot of signage, another 185 or so training videos that we can offer our insurance, and quite a few vendor partnerships with different different companies, including SonicAire. That, you know, provide provide ancillary services for our customers that are great. And all of them have agreed to special pricing for our insurance. So
22:55
that’s great. That’s excellent. Dan, thanks again for your time today. I know this information is helpful to me helpful to understand the process helpful to understand what insurance companies like yours are looking for, whether they’re in the wood industry, or any other industry that deals with dust, what they may be looking for when they come to your facility for an inspection for an initial inspection or a regular audit as part of their process and part of the coverage and part of the efforts to ultimately protect your property and protect your employees and keep you safe in the workplace. So thanks again, Dan, appreciate you joining me today. And that’s all the time we have for our webinar with Pennsylvania Lumbermens Insurance and SonicAire, thanks.
